#21. Bot Takeover: How ManyChat Can Up Your Email Marketing Game | Podcast

Vira  0:00 

Today we have a very special guest, Michelle Barnum Smith. Michelle builds and consults e commerce and Amazon sellers on how to leverage the power of Facebook Messenger pods to grow their businesses.

Alissa  0:32 

Hey everybody and welcome back to another episode of Email Einstein. Alissa and Vira here with a very exciting episode for you today, before we do get started, we are two email marketers at an email marketing agency called Flowium. We are super passionate about email marketing, and because we love what we do, we want to share our insights with you. Flowium is one of the fastest growing email marketing agencies in the world. We specialize in providing a premium, full service e commerce, email marketing experience for all of our clients. And our service is tailored specifically for your business and is designed to help increase your online retail revenue by 20 to 50% and that is right. You heard it right? It’s 50, not 15, five, 0% deliver the right message to the right person at the right moment. That’s what we’re all about here at Flowium. And without further ado, Vira, please let us know what we’re going to be talking about today, because I’m excited.

Vira  1:25 

Oh, I’m so excited about this podcast. I have like gazillion different questions. And today we will be talking about bots, about Facebook Messenger bots, specifically. And if you guys are in E commerce, and probably you are, if you’re listening to this podcast, if you are in E commerce, you’ve probably heard it a lot, bots are the future. And I would strongly disagree with this statement, because bot powered commerce is already our modern day reality. It’s It’s here, it’s booming. And here are some mind blowing numbers, according to Business Insider the Chatbot market size is projected to grow from 2.6 billion in 2020 to $9.4 billion by 2024 that’s An annual growth rate of 29% 29.7 so yes, bot powered commerce is already here. It’s already our modern day reality. That’s why I’m super excited about our guest today. So if you are still wondering whether or not your E commerce business should create a bot, you are asking the wrong question. Today, we have a very special guest, Michelle Barnum Smith, who we will ask all the right questions about bots, and specifically about Facebook Messenger bots. Michelle builds and consults ecommerce and Amazon sellers on how to leverage the power of Facebook Messenger bots to grow their businesses. And when we reach out to many chat and this is basically the platform that we will be talking about. They were like, Oh, she’s like, the girl to have the questions and go to her directly. So Michelle, we’re super happy to have you here today. How’s it going?

Michelle  1:25 

Hey, ladies, thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Vira  1:25 

Cool. We have, like, a little set of quick blitz Q&A, like, blitz questions, just to get to know you better before we go into some juicy questions about messenger bots. But before that, Alissa, let’s play my favorite game.

Alissa  1:55 

Okay, Michelle, we’re gonna start the blitz Q and A. It’s just like a little warm up, so no pressure before we get to the real questions. Just give us the first answer that comes to your mind, are you ready?

Michelle  1:55 

Let’s do it.

Alissa  1:57 

Okay, let’s do it. Number one, Facebook or Instagram?

Michelle  3:47 

Oh, man, okay. Instagram.

Alissa  3:48 

Number two, Amazon or Shopify?

Michelle  3:51 

Amazon.

Alissa  3:52 

Number three, is Santa real?

Michelle  3:54 

Yes.

Alissa  3:56 

Number four, Fall or Spring?

Michelle  3:59 

Spring.

Alissa  3:59 

Okay. Number five dogs or cats?

Michelle  4:04 

Oh, man, I have a dog and three cats.

Alissa  4:07 

Oh my Gosh. No.

Vira  4:16 

Just pick your favorite.

Michelle  4:10 

Two of them are kittens, and they’re so cute. But dogs for companionship, cats for they’re they’re a lot less maintenance than dogs.

Alissa  4:23 

Okay, I’ll take it. I’ll take it. Chocolate or vanilla?

Michelle  4:27 

Chocolate.

Alissa  4:27 

Coffee or tea?

Michelle  4:31 

Hot chocolate.

Alissa  4:31 

Oh, yes, that is a great answer. That would be my answer too.

Vira  4:35 

That is like the most you to answer.

Alissa  4:37 

Yeah, I know. I know, right. Okay, and last one, dating apps, yay or nay?

Michelle  4:43 

Well, I’m married so Nay.

Alissa  4:47 

Okay, perfect, perfect, perfect. Okay, now we get to the real questions. Here we go.

Vira  4:53 

I actually made Alissa ask that dating apps question because I found on your LinkedIn that you were a dating coach for a while, is that so tell us a bit about yourself and about what do you do, what’s your background, and how did you get into many chat like after being a dating coach for so long?

Michelle  5:19 

Well, yeah, it’s been a journey. So I actually did, I actually have been doing marketing for 20 years, and I did corporate high tech marketing for many of the Fortune 100 here in the United States, as well as some of the largest companies in the world. And that’s where I started my career. And I did that for 12 years and then, and in the course of that time, I was single, and I was on this round the world business trip where I had meetings with China Telecom in Shanghai, and then, and then went to Europe to run some focus, focus groups with Vodafone, and was doing all these things. And at the end of that trip, I happened to be in Paris, and it was my birthday, and I was completely single at that point in my life. And here I’ve been on this, like, epic, you know, life experience, literally going around the world with my in my career. And here I was, you know, on my birthday in the most romantic city, alone, completely romantically alone on my birthday, right? And and I was staying like, in this Marriott that was like on the Champs Elysees, I could look out my window and see the Eiffel Tower. It was just so romantic. And so it was the spring, and which is a beautiful time to visit Paris, and I just had this kind of like moment that was kind of a gut punch, you know, where I was like, What am I doing with my life? And and I had this kind of like light bulb moment at the same time where I was like, I, you know, I’m 29 it was my 29th birthday, which immediately made me mentally round up to 30 and 30 and being single was never my plan. I, you know, I wanted to have gotten married and started a family by that point, but I wasn’t. I was staring down the barrel of 30 I was like, Oh my gosh, what am I going to do? And I just had this like, well, moment where I was just like, Okay, I’ve just literally traveled the world, you know, building these marketing plans and the same kind of concepts applied over and over again, which is like, what is the product? Who is the audience? And then what is, you know, how are we going to access that audience with the message of the product, right? That’s like marketing one on one, yeah. And I was like, Okay, well, if it can work around the world for pretty much any product, any geography, any audience. Why couldn’t it work for an individual and for me personally? Like, why can’t I, you know, like, use branding, targeting and advertising to move the product that is me? And, long story short, I did, and it worked, hurried, and it was so funny, because at my wedding reception, I had all these single friends coming through my my line, you know, and greeting me, my husband, and being like, how did you finally get married, you know? How did you finally do it? IE, how can I do it, too, you know? And and this kind of idea was born, and at the same time, I was still kind of like in my career and in this transition period, and I was like, you know, what? Like, I really want to help my friends learn how to use marketing in their own lives, because I’m a marketing professional, but they’re not. And so I started a marketing agency for, like, just businesses in general, but I also kind of started this dating coaching business at the same time.

Alissa  8:35 

So cool. Oh my gosh.

Michelle  8:37 

Yeah. And so I was like, on all these TV shows, because it’s such, like this unique idea, and got some people married. I don’t have any babies named after me. I don’t know why that’s.

Vira  8:49 

The Hallmark will make a movie about you. Michelle, next Christmas, the Hallmark will make a movie about you. You’ll see.

Michelle  8:57 

That’s right, that’s right. And his fulfilling is, that was what I found was that, like, people didn’t want to pay for something that they thought they could pray for, or like that the university just happened, right? You know, like, I was all about being proactive and, like, making things happen, you know, developing, developing leads, right? And and having, like, a CRM for your dating life, it was very effective. People who went through the program, they’d never dated more than they had, like, going through the program, but at the end of the day, I was just like, you know, I’m making more money, like on the business, the B to B side, than I am on the trying to, trying to get singles to to date and get married. So that was, that was a pivot that I made in my business. But I still, you know, there’s a lot of overlap in dating and and in business, because marketing, marketing applies in both situations. And it’s all, it’s kind of creepily, not creepy, but eerily similar. We’ll say.

Vira  9:53 

Yeah, it’s all about the conversion. How many you can take from that, like initial, initial meeting across the line, right? It’s all about conversion, guys.

Alissa  10:02 

Right. That’s right, wow. That’s, I wish you still did that. I’m married, but I wish you still did that, because I’ve, I have a couple of friends that I could refer right over.

Michelle  10:18 

Like, Why? Why is this happening for you?

Alissa  10:21 

Yeah, wow, that’s so smart. That is super, super smart.

Alissa  10:46 

Okay, so you basically transition from kind of like the dating the dating coach scene, essentially where you were pretty much recreating what you had created for businesses on the from a marketing standpoint for actual individuals when it came to their romantic life, essentially. So what was kind of the transition into many chat and then also, can you kind of go into, like, what many chat messenger bot actually is just for anyone who doesn’t know who’s listening?

Michelle  11:13 

Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, the dating, the dating business, was not for lack of opportunity. I would say in that I learned a lot about, like, building digital marketing funnels for my own business and and so then businesses were hiring me to build, like, Clickfunnels, funnels for them, membership sites, email marketing campaigns, you know, I was, I was building email campaigns. There were, like, hundreds of emails deep, you know, and very complex. And one of my issues with those campaigns, and those in those Funnels is they were so complex and they, you know, I have a client that would pay me this, just run those of money, and we’d be building and working for like, three to four months just to get the funnel up, you know, right? And, and I got really frustrated, because then, when the funnel was finally up, it was really difficult to actually identify, Okay, well, what are those breakdown points? What are the, what are the, you know, like the there was no ease in optimization, you know, and being able to identify, like, where things are breaking down, because you’re in a million different tools and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, it was around that time that I saw my first chat bot, in early 2017 it was my first, and it was a many chat, chat bot. And if you guys aren’t familiar, or if your audience isn’t familiar with many chat, many chat spelled, M, A, N, Y, C, H, A, T, is a platform that makes building, at the time, specifically messenger bots, really easy. And what messenger bots are basically is kind of like a conversation that you can have with somebody and in like a one on one automated interaction. That’s basically what it is, is automated one communication, and I saw it in early 2017 and I was like, Oh my gosh, I knew that that was going to be the future. And you’re right, Vira, that is the future that we’re living now, right? It has just exploded and taken off and and I was lucky enough to catch the wave early on and and really establish myself as as an expert in the Chatbot world, and specifically I help e commerce and Amazon, Amazon sellers specifically, with chat marketing and understanding strategies and applications for many chat platform for their business.

Alissa  13:11 

Cool. That’s all so okay, this is kind of bringing it back to like, gosh, early, 2000s so is a many chat bot kind of like, don’t laugh at me. Remember when, like, aim was a thing? Is it kind of like smart child, but like smarter child because they’re actually having, like, a conversation with you, and there’s like, a marketing tactic behind it, versus just like sending this random bot, like messages about, like, what’s the temperature today, or whatever it is.

Michelle  13:39 

I never, I grew up in, like, rural America, so I never had AOL, so I really have no idea what you’re talking about. But, yeah, I mean, you can, you can essentially, with, you know, with chatbots in their simplest form, it can be like, Okay, I’m going to type in a phrase, and it’s not pure AI where it’s like, necessarily reading it. It might be looking for keyword phrases or just like buttons that people can choose to interact but basically, it’s a fun, kind of a fun interactive experience that people can have with your brand through messenger.

Alissa  14:15 

Cool. Okay.

Vira  14:16 

So in a way, it’s like, it’s similar to email marketing, because you are still providing the information. But it’s different in that way, that it’s more like a conversation. It’s like a conversation on Facebook, and when we did it for our Amazon brand, actually, I’ve noticed that sometimes people even thought that that was like a real person talking to them. You can, like, go through their responses and see that, hey, yes, they do think that I’m a real support person and not a messenger bot. So that’s that’s great. So tell us a bit more about this messenger bot, the many chat works only with Facebook Messenger, right? Or with messenger?

Michelle  14:55 

Not only so, I mean, it used to be synonymous when somebody would say. Many chat, they would mean messenger and and vice versa, messenger, many chat used to be kind of like the Kleenex of the messenger space, and it still is like the number one bot building platform for Facebook Messenger. But many chat, as of earlier this year, became an omni channel platform, so now you can send emails and SMS and Facebook Messenger campaigns can all be integrated together. So for example, you could start abroad, you can send an SMS broadcast and then continue the conversation inside of messenger with all the kind of technical capabilities that messenger has. And maybe somebody, maybe you present an offer, and maybe somebody doesn’t click on the offer, and after a certain period of time, then you can follow up with an email, email message, you know, or another SMS message, or even a messenger message. So there’s ways to, kind of like, integrate these channels together. Whereas, you know, last year it was, it was just messenger based, but now it’s quite it has several more channels built into it.

Vira  15:58 

And now, when Facebook is merging messenger and Instagram chat features. How will it affect you guys at many chat like, what will change?

Michelle  16:07 

You know, I like, what’s what’s going to be interesting and what’s going to what’s going to happen across Facebook’s platform. So Facebook owns, obviously, Facebook, Whatsapp, Messenger and Instagram and Facebook and Instagram are, you know, basically, people are there to be entertained, you know, or to argue, depending on the political season. That’s why Facebook is not my favorite place right now. But WhatsApp and messenger are communication platforms, and Instagram has a communication platform inside of it, the ability to DM, if you will. But what Facebook’s going to do is basically merge the communication capabilities between WhatsApp, Messenger and Instagram. So if you are communicating, and I do this all the time, or I’ll like, start a conversation with a friend on Instagram, and then I’ll message them later on Messenger. And if they have a WhatsApp, if we are on WhatsApp too, then maybe I’m like, you know, hitting them up on WhatsApp too. But those, those are technically three separate conversations right now, like they’re not merged into one. And so what Facebook is doing is they’re going to merge all those communication channels. The opportunity for what this looks like is really audience expansion, and messenger is already between WhatsApp and Messenger. It’s about access to about 3 billion people worldwide, and with WhatsApp, specifically, WhatsApp is mostly like an outside of the United States communication tool. It’s predominant market share is is Europe and Latin America. But I don’t know if you girls or you ladies are familiar with WeChat in China. So WeChat is a massive communication platform in China, and so Facebook basically is like, we see you over there and we’re coming for you. That’s That’s kind of like their game plan with across their platforms, but the messenger is, is, is predominantly the largest chat based communication platform outside of China.

Vira  18:05 

Hey, I’m in Vancouver. I had to download the WeChat to my phone, just like, to be able to go to these different places and communicate with different like, Asian businesses. You know, like, WeChat is everywhere, yeah, and Union Pay is huge here as well. So it’s like a payment system. So, yeah, so Facebook is kind of trying to do the same, I guess. So tell us a bit more about email list building with a many chat Is it is it possible? Is it legal? How can you grow your email list with a Facebook Messenger bot?

Michelle  18:40 

I think this was one of the first things this. This literally was the first thing that opened my eyes to the power of chat bots in building, building your email marketing, because, because, once again, I came from like the funnel, the funnel space, where you have a landing page that you send people to, and you’re, you’re getting their their name and their email information and maybe sending them to a thank you page, and then having you what, having them whitelist you inside of their email platform, and then coming back and clicking maybe a confirmation email to, you know, to make sure that you’re on their list correctly. And then they can come for and then they receive whatever lead magnet it was, you know. So the opt in process can be a little the conversion. We’ll just say the conversion rates are not necessarily very great for that, for the number of hoops that you have to jump through and and obviously that’s going to vary based on, obviously, the funnel and the campaign that you’re building. But my first chatbot that I ever saw was basically, you know, a one click opt in to messenger, and then I always ask for their email address immediately. And what’s really cool about about a messenger a messenger bot, is that Facebook will populate the email address automatically that somebody has associated with their Facebook account. So, you know, oftentimes, with like, like a lead generation campaign, people give you garbage email addresses. Yep, and, and. So it’s great about this. Is that it’s all people have to do that email address is already there. All they have to do is tap it and then they’re opted in. That’s that’s you have their email address now associated with their with their Messenger account and messenger ID, same way with SMS information, quite frankly, like the phone number is associated with your Facebook account and and if people want to opt in for SMS messages, all they have to do is simply tap a button, and it’s so easy and simple, I built a giveaway contest template, mini chat, and I’m happy to give it to you guys, and you can give it to your audience, but basically it’s, it’s like a giveaway contest. You’re giving away something attractive, hopefully something related to your brand, so you’re attracting people who are actually interested in your products and and then to get campaign entries, they have to jump through the hoops. What’s your email address? You know, tap your email address, tap your your your phone number. And what’s cool is that then you can build the campaign out to then send them an email address to confirm. You know, send them an email or send them an SMS to confirm. Okay, this is a Gen min account. You know, like our Facebook page, follow us on Instagram. You can have them jump through all these hoops, and then they and then you truly have an omni channel experience where you’re accessing somebody across all of your platforms. You know, the sexy stuff, and it’s fun and interactive. And you can do some, some cool conversational activities to make it to make it fun.

Vira  21:19 

That’s really, yeah, I didn’t realize this how it works. Can you actually somehow integrate it with Klaviyo, say?

Michelle  21:27 

Yeah, Klaviyo integrates, has a direct integration with many chats. So what’s really cool is that you can, as soon as somebody taps their email address, you can have an action that connects that to a specific list in Klaviyo, and then whatever Klaviyo triggers you have in place for that, for that list, can take over from there, as far as the email experience goes.

Alissa  21:47 

Wow, okay, so can. So does that mean that you can actually configure your chatbot to collect specific data and then it because of the integration, and then you can help you, almost like, create new segments and qualify your prospects based on their responses?

Michelle  22:03 

Exactly. So imagine, like, lead sorting. I mean, I work in the E commerce space, that I come from the B to B space, and the ability to, like, identify, like, Hey, this is a really hot lead, or this is a, you know, hot buyer, and have some conditions in place that, if so, for example, one of my first campaigns that I ever built was a quiz. And quizzes are great lead magnet tools for any, any business really. Everybody loves to learn about themselves. And this particular quiz was for curly hair. Is like determining it was a is a curly hair styling product, and I have really straight hair, so I was surprised to learn. But there was like nine different curl types, and so this quiz was all about, like, discover your curl type, and then, you know, as people were going through the quiz where we’re asking them about their hair porosity, and you know, how long it takes them to dry their hair, and those sort of things, and we’re able to tag people based on those responses, and then have conditions in place that give them different outcomes and send them to different landing pages or add them to different campaigns based on their responses. Right? It would be so easy at the end of those experiences to then have an action step that adds them to a specific labio email segment campaign based on, okay, well, you are a night, you are like a 2c, okay, well, then they’re in the to see Klaviyo campaign, you know? So, oh, it’s sexy stuff.

Alissa  23:27 

Wow. This is, like, this is way okay. This is really cool, because this does way more than what I had anticipated. And also, I think it’s, I think, on, like, the consumer end, and not necessarily, like looking at it from a marketing perspective. Internally, you see those bots, like, come up from time to time, and you’re like, oh my gosh, whatever. And then you turn it off, but you don’t really understand, like, its capability. And now I’m like, holy moly, the possibilities are endless. That’s great.

Michelle  23:55 

Right, and I and I think most people’s experience the bot, like the chat bots, came from the support world. You know, like, you go, you come to somebody’s website, and immediately, like, a chat bot pops up, and it’s so obnoxious. You know, sometimes it’s helpful, where you’re like, I have an issue and I want to solve right now, right? I’m looking at you, Comcast, their chat it’s great.

Alissa  24:14 

Their body, great you said?

Michelle  24:18 

There is great. And it’s native. It’s not messenger based, but most, but that’s where the chat bot like world started. Was on, you know, was on for customer support, because providing one on one customer support for, like, simple, easy questions, frequently asked questions, is, like, super expensive. And so chat bots were created to answer the dumb questions first, right? And so it’s not until they get escalated to, you know, to a live chat person, that you actually speak to, speak to a real human, right? But so that’s, that’s what most people’s experience has been with chat bots has been that that support and that annoying and like euu. But marketing chat bots are a whole different world and a whole different beast, and there’s so much fun. I. Um, from a as a marketer, and I’m sure, like, if you guys get your hands in there and and play around with you’d be like, Oh, wow, this is fun as a marketer, and then as a consumer, it’s so much fun. You know, there’s, there’s always some like, hesitancy, and you can see that sometimes in in conversion rates, depending on what you know, from a Facebook ad to messenger, you know, a messenger bot popping up inside a messenger but you can tell it. A lot of people are like, Oh, this is cool. Oh, this is interesting. You know, this is fun and and you can definitely see those conversion rates happen inside of your flows, and see and see what’s going on.

Vira  25:35 

Wow. This conversation getting more and more interesting. Tell us more. What else can you do with many chatbots? Say, if I’m an E commerce entrepreneur, I own Shopify store, can I actually recover some lost sales? Can I like Target only customers who start the checkout process but leave before completing a transaction?

Michelle  25:56 

Yes. So Shopify and many chat are natively integrated, and so there’s definitely some, like abandoned cart campaigns that can be implemented and and what we call growth tools, which are like the opt in experience. So one of the, you know, you can have a typical pop up on your website, that is the, you know, opt in spin the wheel to get, you know, to get a discount. You know you guys, well, you probably installed those, you know, like, you can also have a customer chat experience on the website that is messenger based, where you can you can even have, like, a guided shopping experience with people. One of my first website based chat bots was with a supplement company. And I don’t know if you’re like me, but like, you walked into some like supplements. It’s like, I don’t know what to buy here. I don’t know what to get like, especially if they have like, hundreds and maybe even 1000s of products. Sometimes you need a guided sales process. And so what I built, the plot, the kind of bot that I built for this client was a, you know, tell us about your health concerns. And it was like a series of questions. You were able to narrow it down, narrow it down, and then basically be like, Okay, these are the best sellers in this category based on what it sounds like you’re dealing with. And here’s the link to the product, you know, and that can all happen inside of the chat bot in the website.

Alissa  27:15 

So that it’s a little more of an interactive well, you can utilize it more as like, an interactive quiz where you feel like you’re actually having a conversation with someone like you would in a store, like, Hey, what are you looking for? What do you need? XYZ. And then you just continue filtering the questions until you essentially know what exactly they need.

Michelle  27:33 

Oh, right, exactly. And then there’s, and then there’s, you know, obviously Messenger is a Facebook property, right? And so there’s pixeling that happens. And so you can pixel people at different points in in the Chatbot itself. So if you want to do run retargeting ads or things like that, the cool thing, though, about it is you really don’t need retargeting ads, because you have their actual information. You know that Michelle Smith, looked at those shoes and clicked on, you know, clicked on that link. You now have me in an abandoned cart scenario. You would only need retargeting ads if I was truly super cold, you know, at that, you know, it’s like, it’s like the combination of email list meets, I don’t know, like, like, social media kind of a thing where you actually know who the individual is. It’s not the blind Facebook pixel sending you more ads. It’s much more targeted and much cheaper. Wow, that’s the reality. So, yeah, just just a few kind of possibilities that you can do just with your E commerce site, with messenger.

Vira  28:40 

Yeah, and the open rates, and click through rates are insane. I somewhere read that on like lower end, the open rates are like 30 something percent, and it can go up to like 80 something percent. When with email marketing, 2025 it’s considered to be like a good, solid open rate. So right, that’s that’s interesting. So how does it connect? I’m still have, like, a lot of questions about like, Klaviyo and email marketing, and I’m a email marketing nerd here, sorry about that. So say if someone is going through the sequence like and Klaviyo, and then you will approach them from Facebook as well, say, abandonment card. Will this abandonment card sequence in in Messenger stop if I purchase something like from Klaviyo and vice versa? So do this like two systems? Do they like work together? Or do you need to, like to go and I don’t know, like manually change that?

Michelle  29:41 

No, because it’s not, it’s not so much the systems working together. It’s it’s more about the systems being integrated with Shopify, so if the customer purchases, then that data is automatically updated across right the native integrations.

Vira  29:55 

Now I get it.

Alissa  29:58 

So this, so then the chat bot. Knows not to continue the conversation about, hey, you should continue to make this purchase, or whatever it is.

Michelle  30:05 

Right. Because it’s checking, it’s checking that you know the status of purchase.

Alissa  30:10 

That’s so interesting. Wow, that’s nuts. So what are like some? What are some like, upselling and cross selling strategies that that many chat would use, like, what’s like a I mean, you don’t have to give us, like, three examples, but like, what’s like a solid example of, like, what that would look like. So it goes back and checks Shopify, and then would determine, like, what to upsell or cross sell to the to the consumer.

Michelle  30:35 

That’s, I mean, that sort of thing isn’t like, naturally built into many chat, but you would have that capability in many chat to build something out like that. So let’s say that you have this, you know, you have this integration with Shopify. You’re seeing that an order is placed. Then, you know, then naturally, you can send out a message saying, Okay, your order is on its way. But would you like fries with that? You know, like, like, while, like, you liked those shoes, but would you like the socks to go with it? You know, like, I think that that the the opportunities for cross sell and upsell are limited to your own creativity, because they because the tools are in place, and obviously the Shopify itself, and in the checkout experience has its own, you know, upselling and cross selling experiences that can be built out. But in many chat is just like, you know, there’s autumn, there’s the automation side, and then there’s the marketing side and and just like sending emails, you can also send messages and broadcasts and paid messages to your subscribers in many chat and this is where kind of like, the difference between email marketing and chat marketing diverge in how you use the platforms, because I don’t do drip marketing inside of many chat it’s something that I tried initially because I came from the email marketing world, but I found that what it did is that it neutralized the response rates in chat marketing. And so what I use, what I use chat marketing for, is notification based communication. So if I have, like, a super hot deal that I’m running, if I am, if I have something that’s super time sensitive, I’m going to send that out omni channel through messenger, through SMS, through email. But if I want to develop a relationship with my customer, and I want them to get to know me, and I want to drip on them, for lack of a better term, then I’m going to do that via email, because that is more kind of a long term automation type experience. And I want to save my chat marketing subscribers for like, notifications only. I want to train them that when they get a message from me, then they better jump, because it’s going to be super valuable. And they better open that email. They better or they better open that message, they better open that SMS, and they better interact with it. As just an example, I have a client who does Facebook Lives like five times a day. She does, she goes and sells specifically through Facebook Lives and and, and the clothes that she sells, she only has a certain number of each item. And so she’s trained her audience that like, Hey, I’m not, you know, like, there’s only three of these shirts in each size available. So she has, like, avid shoppers who watch her every time she goes live. Well, Facebook algorithm, you know, doesn’t always play in your favor as a brand. And so she has a list that we’ve built in many chat of almost 30,000 subscribers. And so when she goes live, and I try to limit it, I don’t like to do like five notifications a day, because to me, that’s way too much. But just as an example of one that we ran earlier this week, we did, like an omni channel broadcast, and just comparing open rates and click through rates for the messenger. She had 100% delivered, 100% opened, and then a 22% click through rate. You know, she’s like, Hey, we’re going live. It’s 35% off. Or, you know, moving to a new warehouse, like we’re everything’s blown out. Her SMS had a 37% deliverability rate and a 5.2% click through rate, and then her email had a 12% 100% delivered delivered rate, 12.8% open rate, with a 1.1% click through rate, oh my gosh. So it’s definitely one of those things where it’s just like, Okay, did you catch that? Like, the open rate is the bit like one of the biggest determining factors of if you know, if you can, if you can train people to at least open your messages and jump, when you say jump, then you have a better chance of winning that fell. You know, if they’re not even opening your messages, if you’re become like, if they become numb to you, then you’ve lost, right? Right? And so it’s this is kind of this balance between communication and over communication, right? And that’s why I like to use messenger as a notification platform as opposed to a communication platform.

Alissa  34:52 

So would you say that Messenger marketing is more fruitful than email marketing? Or how? I mean, yeah, how would you. Answer a question like that?

Michelle  35:01 

I would say that the purposes are different in what you’re trying to accomplish. Okay? So if I’m running a short term promotion, I’m going to do that via messenger, not via email, because I want people to act quickly if I’m going to be and this is like, like, Bath and Body Works, like I’m on their email list and I get like, five emails a day, right? So I’ve become numb to them, yeah, but you better believe when it’s fall, right? Alissa, like it’s fall. I want my leaves scented candle. I want, yep, and I’m checking my bath and body works, because I know somewhere in there is going to be a coupon code, right? Because they’re just going to hound me with it over and over. And maybe their soaps are on sale this week, and I need to get my, you know, hand sanitizer. So, so I think that there’s different kind of use case that, once again, I think it comes down to time sensitivity of of the offer itself, and where I do a lot with Amazon sellers, most of their offers are super, super hot, limited time, right? You know, and specific time based offers and so and so. We don’t do a lot of email marketing because I want to train my list to jump my same month.

Alissa  36:11 

Wow, that’s so interesting.

Vira  36:13 

And since you mentioned Amazon already, well, email marketing and Amazon there, it’s very, two very different things, because on Amazon, you basically, you don’t own that context, right? So is there a way to somehow get Amazon’s customers email addresses through many chat and like, add them to your email list, and do it, like, legally? Because I know that there are a lot of like, illegal ways to do that. People are promoting the services, and Amazon is very protective of that data. But is there a way to retrieve like, those emails safely and like legally?

Michelle  36:55 

Short answer no. Long answer is, it depends on what you’re wanting to do with your campaign. So a lot of the times, what I’m doing with Amazon sellers is we are creating buyers and sending those you know, we’re running a Facebook ad, and that ad is sending people to a mini chat campaign, and we’re able to, you know, present an offer and follow up with people directly inside of the campaign. And part of that is acquiring their email addresses, their SMS information, and then following up, requesting the reviews, those kinds of things. And so when I’m creating my own Amazon buyers, and yes, I they, they started with me, and I own all their data.

Vira  37:32 

Okay, so you basically just like, send that traffic to Amazon, right.

Michelle  37:36 

Correct. Now, if you are trying to what I call harvest your Amazon buyers from Amazon directly you there is not an integration between many chat and Amazon where Amazon’s like, hey, sure, you know, here’s their user. No, no, no, no. So there’s other workarounds for getting to know who your buyers are, and there’s motivations for Amazon sellers to know who their buyers are. First and foremost is following up and requesting reviews, which is kind of the currency of Amazon, right social proof and and there’s some methods for for getting to know who those buyers are. Some of those are gray area for Terms of Service. And so I don’t ever talk about like, black hat techniques, just because I’m, you know, I want people to trust me and know that I’m not going to get them in trouble with Amazon. But there’s, there’s simple things, like having built into your product packaging some sort of offer, or QR code, or messenger, or many chat URL or people can, you know, go to a landing page to claim their offer, and it kicks, it kicks off a many chat campaign, you know, and follows up with them directly, and, and, and starts that direct relationship. One of the, one of my favorite kind of ways to use these techniques is to use Amazon as an acquisition tool, because you’ve already run one. Won the first sale. But what about the second sale? What about monthly recurring revenue, you know, those kinds of things, and moving the relationship direct. That’s that’s like, one of my favorite things to do with Amazon sellers is to teach them how to start, how to start a direct relationship with their customers and use Amazon as an Acquisition Source.

Vira  39:17 

I know that some people are doing this thing when they say, put some kind of like insert in their product with like a link or QR code or something like that. So like, Hey, here’s the QR code, go back and get some kind of, like a freebie, or get the discount for your next product or something. Because for a lot of our clients who we work with, the constant struggle is to be bringing those people from Amazon to their own platform. So you, like, initially, like, own that that context. So you can, like, start building the relationship with them, and you can, like, send them promotion and stuff like that. So do you do you know, any like, quick tricks for like, how to get people. Like who purchase from Amazon and who are not necessarily like your customers from Facebook. Do you know how to get them to like.

Michelle  40:08 

Yeah, just like, just like I mentioned, product inserts is one, one channel to utilize, because you know that that your product, that product insert, is going to get in front of 100% of Amazon buyers, people who buy that product. They’re not your customers. Yet, they’re Amazon’s customers, and product inserts are great way to get in front of them. Now, there’s kind of two things that you have to pay attention to with having a a successful product insert, and the first is to be seen, and the second is to be compelling. So what you don’t want is to have your product insert be a part of the throwaway experience. You know, like, I’m sure you ladies have done it where you’re you’re opening that Amazon box, and you’re pulling stuff out of it, and you’re unwrapping maybe some things that are in polybags, and then you’re just, like, right next to the recycling bin and just throwing the trash in there, and you want to interrupt that experience and have something that that jumps out and, and, and, you know, for supplement sellers, it’s a sticker on the lid. You know, if you sell a consumable, you need that product insert or that sticker somewhere. They’re going to see that every time they use the product or access the product, right? If you you know you need a postcard, at least you know where it makes sense. Or if you can provide something that’s part of the instructions for using the product, you know that’s valuable as well. But if you’re just going to be on the app, the external part of the product that just gets thrown away, you are not going to be interrupting that, that throwaway experience. And then the second thing is to be compelling. You know, a lot of people are like, this is a lead magnet, right? This is, this is, this is where you are going to, you know, present your offer. And if it’s just like, hey, register a warranty, guess what? That’s not compelling, you know, like, No, not at all. I, I bought a fridge a couple years ago, and I am, that’s like, a major expense, right? That’s a major purchase, and it will break at some point, and I still like, and I get a million emails and direct mail, it’s like, register your warranty. Register on Nah, I’m good, you know? And that’s a major expense. I’m not going to register a warranty for, like, a curling iron, you know, so it has to be, you have to really be thoughtful and think of like, what is going to be helpful and and one of my favorite examples is a client who sell, sells, like a beard balm, and he has on his product, insert, hey, hey, get a free ebook with a how to video for applying this and shaping your beard so it’s instructional. And then he also has like, a, like a coupon offer, you know, for your next order, that sort of thing. But his product, it’s on the outside package. It’s also on the lid of the product itself, or on the bottom of the product. So it’s, it’s still is on the product. It’s not going to get thrown away. And it’s, and it’s really, you know, a good offer supplement sellers, it’s free bottle. Usually that’s that’s pretty compelling and performs really well. So you kind of have to, first to be seen, and second is to be compelling to get people into to scan that QR, QR code or go type in a link. Because you’re taking somebody from an offline experience to an online experience, right? That means they like really have to be committed, and you want to make that as easy and simple as possible to do, yeah.

Vira  40:22 

And you have to bring some value. That’s, that’s for sure, with additional staff, yeah, something that we did with our brand, and we’re selling maps on Amazon. So we created the insert with a URL to the PDF book that we have created. And book is pretty cool. It’s about like 20 most iconic hikes and national parks in the States. So yeah, there are very detailed instructions, like, where to stay, where to park, like, how much does it cost to get into the park, and stuff like that. So the book itself, it brought a lot of value to customers, and then we basically send that traffic to the landing page, and from there, they opted in into the messenger bot, and that’s how they basically got the PDF. And we have seen, like, a lot of success with this little campaign. So that’s something that I can definitely suggest you guys to try. Okay, cool. Well, one of the last questions. And this is like a tricky one, Michelle, do you think that chatbots will eventually, like, replace email marketing completely?

Michelle  44:30 

Um, I would say that, like, there’s, there’s a couple of layers to that question. The first is that the future of communication is going to be Well, the reality is that the present and the future of communication is going to be Chat, where people want to connect with individuals and brands in private conversations. And as a consumer, you want if you’re going to have a conversation, you have a specific end goal in mind. Designed for that. You know, whether that’s a support need or you’re wanting to shop or do something like that, and you know, mobile devices, I’m sure you’re already seen, but like with Amazon, 70% of our campaigns are done via mobile device, and so the ability to interact and have that private one on one conversation, albeit automated, is is extremely valuable for the end user experience. Yeah, what I foresee is that email marketing is going to become more integrated with chat marketing, and it’s not an either or, it’s an and experience, just like I kind of mentioned earlier where our campaigns are now omni channel, meaning we start we communicate, you know, and send a broadcast, maybe to all platforms, and then maybe follow up via email and SMS if certain actions aren’t happening, you know. And in starting conversations over again, deeper into the funnel. So what I see is more integrated marketing between these channels, not a replacement of these channels. It’s like when people say, Well, did email marketing kill direct mail? No, no. Direct Mail is still, still exists and still a valuable communication channel. You just how you use those channels are different and and the channels can be integrated together. So that’s how I see and how I use email marketing and chat marketing. It’s not replacement. It’s a integrative experience.

Alissa  46:35 

That’s cool. Well, that’s very relieving for us, but I totally see where you’re coming from. We actually had an interview pretty recently with a gentleman who created a company called IgnitePost, and they do direct mail, and they basically have found a way to integrate their platform with Klaviyo. And so essentially, it’s like you have like this follow up of direct mail from the emails that are going out and the campaigns that are going out to these customers. And they have, like.

Michelle  47:05 

A omni channel. It’s omni channel. It’s just like, as marketers, we got to hit everybody. If we have that information, you better believe we’re going to use it.

Alissa  47:11 

Yeah, no, for sure. For sure, absolutely. Okay. Michelle, so this is our very last question, and it’s a little more generic. What advice would you give your younger self about starting a business and primarily going into kind of the marketing avenues that you’ve gone into that’s far?

Michelle  47:31 

Oh, that’s not a simple question. That’s not the easy question. The hardest one for last, you know marketing, marketing is an ever evolving area, right? I have a, one of my best friends owns an accounting firm, and I mean, besides software updates and things like that, accounting hasn’t changed in like, 1000 years, debits and credits, I don’t know, but that’s not true. But like, but marketing like guaranteed in the conversation. In the time we’ve had this conversation, a new marketing tool has just, you know, launched in the marketplace, yeah, somewhere for somebody, right? Yeah, it’s ever evolving and ever changing and and so I think the thing is, is that whether it’s to my younger self, or just to anybody who has a marketing agency, or is serving as a marketing professional, is that you have to focus, and you have to create an audience niche that you are going to serve, and then you have to, kind of like, be a groundhog and pop your head up and see what’s going on in the marketplace, and be like, Okay, do I Need to pivot? Is this, is this client, you know? Is this client, the clientele that I’m serving, you know? Is it continuing to serve me? Are there going to be some massive changes coming down the pipeline, you know? And with Amazon, I’m constantly having to do that and being like, Okay, what’s the future of working with Amazon sellers? And thankfully for me, it’s, there’s gonna be a long future there, right? But, you know, you always have to be analyzing, like, Okay, is it the right offer? Is it the right audience, you know, like, is this is the right thing for me to be attaching myself to and try not to be a marketing generalist? Because, gosh, at the end of the day, that’s not what your clients need. They need somebody who is going to be an expert in specific, specific area. So, you know, as many pivots as I’ve had in my business, I’m grateful to to have had those because, because I would never have recognized the many chat opportunity if I hadn’t spent the years building marketing funnels, you know, and I wouldn’t have gotten into building digital marketing funnels and creating my own business if I hadn’t had the 12 plus years doing corporate marketing, you know. So experience leads to experience. And I think the biggest thing is, is that you can’t be living in a land of FOMO. You have to do your best with what you have available, and and, and pivot where it makes sense, you know. So like, you know, hopefully I’ve opened your eyes today, and maybe some of your listeners eyes to the opportunity. Need with chat bots and the integrative marketing opportunities that exist with email marketing chatbots and and so the opportunity now is like, okay, what can we learn to be able to offer this service to our email marketing clients and create an omni channel communication experience that benefits them overall? It’s not necessarily about the platform. It’s about what the customer needs, and can I provide that?

Alissa  50:21 

Yeah, no. I mean, you’ve definitely, definitely opened our eyes. I think both Vira and I are like, whoa. We did not realize how many possibilities are available with chat bots. This is nuts, and now it’s like, the kind of we love these interviews for our for our podcast episodes, because we get all this information, and then we’re like, Ah, now we have to tell all our clients so they can leverage all of this. We go back and forth and tell them, like, hey, we discovered this new thing, but you don’t understand, like, it’s amazing and it’s way better than what you would think. And yeah, so this, this kind of stuff, gets us really excited, because it’s nice to hear about the different marketing avenues that kind of sort of like integrate and kind of come together as, like, a really nice big puzzle with email marketing, because it shouldn’t just be about email marketing, like you said a few times now, is it’s omni channel. So like, the more information you can get about your consumer or the the demographic that you’re trying to target, the better. Because the better you’ll have kind of a, I guess, an influence over them, if you can even say it like that. So yeah, it’s.

Michelle  51:18 

Ability to reach and communicate with, yeah. I mean, that’s really what, that’s really what it comes down, down to. And I think if, if anybody’s feeling overwhelmed by this and being like, oh my goodness, yeah, this is amazing. What I always recommend is that you start with, like, with one customer, and you build a case study, you do something for free for them, and you get your feet wet, and you build something out, and now you have a case study that you can then take back to them and get them to start paying you for it, number one, and then take it to you know, future clients who have, you know, shared objectives and and start to start to, you know, offer those services more broadly.

Alissa  51:55 

I love it. Michelle, thank you so much for today. We really, really, really appreciate it. This was incredible. Very eye opening. Where can we, kind of, like, tell our listeners to find you, like, can they find you on LinkedIn? Or is there, like, another avenue where they can just find more about you and about many chat overall?

Michelle  52:15 

Yeah. I mean, I have some webinars that I’ve done specifically with many chat I mean, if you Google my name, Michelle Barnum Smith. There’s gonna be a ton of stuff that comes up, but I’m on LinkedIn. I’m also I’m launching my own SAS platform, which is a for Amazon sellers to be able to build many chat campaigns more easily. And it’s called Easy bot. So if you go to easybot.com you can join our waitlist there. We’ll be launching in a couple weeks, and or you can reach out to us at support, at yourmarketingtherapy.com to to be able to speak to somebody on my team and learn how you can work with us.

Alissa  52:48 

Okay, amazing. Michelle, thank you again. So much. Really appreciate it.

Michelle  52:52 

It’s been awesome. I’m so tired. I’ve wrung myself out for you. There’s nothing left. I don’t know anything else.

Vira  53:03 

A lot of food. First thoughts, yeah, for us, that’s, that’s for sure. And by the way, guys, all of the, all of the resources and links that they were mentioned in this podcast, we will link them in the description box, so just like, scroll down and you’ll find everything that we talked about. And hey, don’t forget to subscribe and share this podcast with your E commerce friends. If you have any questions at all and you’d like us to feature either you on the podcast, or maybe you know someone who would like to be featured in our podcast, just send them at flowium.com/ask, and also all the resources we mentioned and even more will be linked in the description, as I mentioned. And if you want to get involved in our community, and we do have a pretty awesome community of E commerce marketers and entrepreneurs join us at flowium.com/community and by the way, I know a lot of information here, but if you’re interested in getting some more advice on how to establish a solid email marketing strategy, just visit us at flowium.com/contact, and sign up for free consultation. So people like me or Alissa or some other account managers, they can, just like, give you a quick overview of your existing email marketing strategy and maybe saying where you can improve.

Alissa  54:18 

Perfect and guys next week, make sure that you tune in, because we do actually have another interview for you. So even more good stuff that you’ll be looking forward to, we’ll actually be talking to Sina Mobasser from Tapcart. So if you are an E commerce owner and you are dying to get a savvy, user friendly, really cool mobile app, but you’re looking at a developer potentially creating that for you, and you’re like, Whoa, that’s way out of the budget. You will definitely want to listen to next week’s episode, because tapcart might just be the resource that you need to add on to your ecommerce brand. So make sure that you listen. Do not miss next week. Thank you again for today, Michelle, it was super, super insightful. I’m excited to to harass all my clients about this now.

Michelle  55:04 

Well, if you need me, I’m here for you so they can guide you in your harassment.

Alissa  55:09 

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Vira  55:11  

Thank you for listening. Bye.