#62. How To Keep Your Customers Coming Back For More | Podcast

Alissa: 0:16

We’re super, super excited to have Ricky Joshi, one of the co-founders of Saatva, a mattress company. Their mattresses have thousands of incredible, incredible reviews, and they are a rapidly growing company.

Vira: 0:52

Hello everyone and welcome to episode number 62 of Flowium Podcast. We are email marketers at an email marketing agency called Flowium. We are so, so passionate about email marketing and because we love what we do, we want to share our insights with you guys. Flowium is one of the fastest growing email marketing agencies in the world and we specialize in providing premium full-service e-commerce email marketing experience to all of our clients, delivering the right message to the right person at the right moment. And today we have a very special guest. That’s probably like the podcast I’ve been the most excited about in a while. And Alissa will tell you exactly why. Alissa, take it from here.

Alissa: 1:36

We are so excited for this episode. And Ricky’s probably like, okay, these creeps. But have you guys ever wondered what it’s like to sleep on a cloud? Do you know what it’s like to sleep on a cloud? I don’t personally, but our COO here at Flowium actually does. And guess what the the name of her mattresses, Saatva. And that’s who we’re gonna be talking with today. We’re super, super excited to have Ricky Joshi, one of the co-founders of Saatva, a mattress company of all companies. You guys, this is the moment we’ve been waiting for. So Ricky, just so you get some context on why we’re so excited, we have this ongoing joke, not really, well, yeah, it’s a joke, but we have this ongoing thing on our podcast where whenever we talk about email marketing, we compare how the marketing would be different for someone who sells socks versus someone who sells mattresses. And we haven’t had anyone who sells socks on here yet, but we’re super excited that you are our very first, very special guest who’s going to be actually talking to us about marketing for mattresses. So welcome, welcome. We’re very excited to have you on. Just so you guys have a little more context about who Saatva is, their like kind of like motto is to discover pure sleep bliss with their handcrafted mattresses at prices that won’t keep you up at night, which I really like. I love the play on words here. And Vira is actually on the market for a mattress. However, they don’t sell it in Canada. So for all of you in Canada, I’m sorry, you’ll have to wait for the future. But their mattresses have thousands of incredible, incredible reviews, and they are a rapidly growing company. And as a lot of you who are based here in the States know, the mattress market is becoming pretty competitive. There are a lot of different brands to choose from. But one of the very, very cool things about Saatva is they really kill it with not only their social media presence, but also what they’re doing in terms of marketing as a whole. And Vira and I have been kind of clued in on their emails that they’ve been sending out, and we’re very intrigued and we’re really excited excited as well because we get to kind of talk to Ricky about what marketing actually looks like for a mattress company. So that kind of example that we always give with socks, it’s a little bit different, right? Because it’s likely that people are buying socks pretty frequently, whereas with a mattress, there is a longevity that has to come with that mattress purchase. So we’re going to talk to him a little bit more about what that marketing looks like because you’re really playing the long game with a lot of your customers and potential customers. So Ricky, do you want to say hi really quick?

Ricky: 4:10

Hey, how are you? How’s everyone out there? I’m excited to be here. And yeah, Vira and Alissa have set this up very well. So yeah, just excited to talk to you guys.

Alissa: 4:20

Awesome. Thanks, Ricky.

Vira: 4:21

That’s awesome.

Alissa: 4:22

Before we get started, we are going to do a very favorite component of ours on the show where we basically do a blitz Q&A. So we’ll start with some kind of this or that questions so that way we can kind of get to know more about you and your personality. Are you ready?

Ricky: 4:37

Sure.

Alissa: 4:37

Okay, cool.

Vira: 4:38

Cool. Okay. The first one, memory foam or spring?

Ricky: 4:41

Spring.

Vira: 4:42

Really? Interesting.

Alissa: 4:44

Very interesting.

Vira: 4:44

Slippers or barefoot?

Ricky: 4:47

Slippers.

Alissa: 4:47

Okay.

Vira: 4:48

Power nap or long nap?

Ricky: 4:51

Long nap.

Vira: 4:52

Yay, long nap team here.

Alissa: 4:54

Yeah, same, same. So many people vouch for the power nap and I’m like, 20 minutes just is not enough for me.

Ricky: 5:00

I’ll take it if I can get it. But, uh, You know, the long naps are a great luxury.

Alissa: 5:06

Okay, in terms of marketing, what do you like doing or enjoy doing more, email marketing or social media marketing?

Ricky: 5:13

Email marketing.

Vira: 5:14

Cool.

Alissa: 5:15

Nice answer. Okay. How do you feel about weighted blankets? Yes or no?

Ricky: 5:19

Yes for other people. No for me.

Alissa: 5:22

Okay. Okay. And then our very last, the, the all-time question here. We know the answer, but just for fun, socks or mattress?

Ricky: 5:31

Mattress.

Alissa: 5:33

There we go. Awesome. Okay, now for the juicy stuff, the good stuff.

Vira: 5:37

Sure. Let’s, let’s start with our juicy, juicy questions. So you guys are called the disruptors of the mattresses industry, and mattress might not be the first thing that comes to mind when one hears the term disruptor. Can you briefly share what your company does and what’s unique about Saatva’s contribution to the industry?

Ricky: 6:02

Yeah. So, you know, we were actually, I think, one of the first direct-to-consumer brands that really tried to disrupt an existing industry. So we launched in 2000 and early 2011, and what we really saw was the way mattresses were marketed both in-store and online was not very product-centric. The companies were not really explaining the details of what differentiated various products. So you’d walk into a generic mattress store and you have 15 different boxes that all look the same and not a lot of depth in terms of what was going on there. We really saw an opportunity to, one, build a better product and really focus on the things that make a product better using organic cotton in our case, using a natural thistle flame retardant instead of formaldehyde, using natural foam whenever possible, building the spring technology to be, to be more durable. Also layering that with exceptional customer service. If you go and buy a mattress from a big box retailer, you’re really buying a product from a different manufacturer. And if say you have a warranty issue or whatever, there’s a lot of passing back and forth, almost as similar to the way you’d buy a PC from Best Buy. Who’s really servicing you? Is it Best Buy or is it Toshiba or whomever? So we saw an opportunity to really have that direct relationship with the customer. Also doing things like being available 24/7, really bending over backwards for the customer. So I think having a customer-centric approach, an exceptional product, and then creating really a brand with longevity. So offering really an experience as opposed to just a quick transaction, I think has been something that we’ve been able to do. And do well. Then doing all of this, we feel is a more than accessible and fair price point and a very transparent price point, which is very different than the mattress industry when we first entered it, which was very convoluted in terms of pricing, a lot of price gouging, really high margins, huge massive flash sales, things like that. We really thought we had an opportunity to do something very different. Basically, almost to be honest, at every component of the business, we wanted to do a much better job. And I think that’s how we’ve been able to kind of have the traction that we’ve been able to have. One other thing that I think differentiates us, because as I’m sure you’re aware, the mattress industry, you know, we were in it early. However, in 2014, Casper entered in the fray and a bunch of other competitors sort of followed suit in the direct-to-consumer mattress space. But what we did is we actually built a national delivery network and delivery infrastructure run by software that allows us to actually put a mattress in your home and remove it, which really means that, you know, we’re not limited in terms of the quality of our product. So we did a lot of hard work to build that logistics network, which now has really differentiated us versus, you know, everyone in the category.

Vira: 8:49

Yeah. And what I found interesting about your marketing and I did some like digging before the podcast is that you guys aren’t really targeting millennials with your brand. And like there are so many like even mattress companies like Casper or like other brands like Dollar Shave Club or like Warby Parker or something, they like specifically target that group and people in around like 35 years. But you basically build a successful business not targeting people under 35. And this brand, it appeals to like younger people. It appeals to like moms in their 40s who, I don’t know, need the mattress to be like delivered straight to their door. It appeals to homeowners like with all that in-home delivery and installation and stuff. And I think it’s like really fascinating. Fascinating. Why did you decide to go like this way and not just do something like fun, young, and hip?

Ricky: 9:43

Yeah, you know, I think that’s really what’s interesting about our business. We’ve almost done everything we’ve done has been actually, to be honest, outside of creating a really, really kind of nice and beautiful brand. A lot of what we’ve done has actually been very, very different from every single direct-to-consumer company. And, you know, we in this category, when we really saw the opportunity, you know, everyone needs a mattress and the value proposition, whether it’s, you know, someone who’s 30 or someone who’s 70, I mean, they’re really looking for superior product at an accessible price and really looking for fantastic customer service and all the things that are so authentic to our brand. So we really, you know, thought that we were limiting ourselves by just targeting, you know, a very particular demographic. At the end of the day, I think, you know, direct-to-consumer and disruption resonates, you know, across all age and demographic categories.

Vira: 10:31

That’s awesome.

Alissa: 10:32

That is very interesting. So what would you say, Ricky, were the biggest drivers of your sales growth at the very beginning and then also over the past few years?

Ricky: 10:42

So in the beginning, I mean, honestly, we were just really iterating our web experience, building the systems, optimizing and really making sure our messaging was clear. And so that I think drove a lot of our early success. We also did a lot of performance marketing and I think we did it very, very well. We were very targeted with our ads, very, we tried to learn a lot. We were very disciplined and I think we had a very performance marketing driven approach as opposed to a lot of, I think, you know, venture-funded companies that go and try to raise a lot of brand awareness but aren’t really looking for direct ROI. You know, we were ROI-driven from the beginning. As we grew, the focus— obviously the performance marketing is always there, but really we kind of grew into the brand both by offering a much broader swath of products. So we started originally with one mattress product that was— for our first 4 years of business, really, we had one product in various firmnesses and expanded from there. And so in, in the mattress category, we really— for example, in mattresses, we try to have a best-in-class product in every category. So we have in the latex category, we have a fantastic latex product as well as a latex hybrid. In memory foam, we have our Loom Leaf product. In innerspring, we have our Saatva. We also have our heavy-duty Saatva, which is for ultra durability. But really going kind of, you know, very tactically and building out the product catalog, I think was really kind of important and critical to our success. We also added ancillary items like pillows sheets. And, you know, we initially started off with one pillow. Now we have three things like that. So, you know, it’s a constant evolution. I think it’s interesting. A lot of, you know, people who maybe aren’t as exposed to e-commerce marketing things, you know, can think that you’re just going to put something up and it’s static and it’s everything. But, you know, we’re always moving. We’ll always continue to move.

Vira: 12:29

Yeah. And it’s interesting because like mattress is just like something that people buy maybe like once in several years. Right. And there are not really any like multiple orders from the same exact customer. So that must be like one of the reasons why you guys decided to like introduce all this like different like accessories and like pillowcases and bedding and stuff like that, correct?

Ricky: 12:53

Yeah, 100%. You nailed it. So we wanted to have that long-term customer relationship. And believe it or not, I think one of the greatest things about having and forming and building that long-term customer relationship is a customer might have your mattress or our mattress and buy our sheets, buy our pillows, buy our bedding, buy a comforter, buy a duvet. I actually just got a new duvet ordered yesterday because mine, I’ve had it for 2 years and I’m like, okay, maybe I need to actually get a new one, change the style up a little bit. But you form that customer relationship and when they’re looking to move move or, you know, buy a bigger house, which a lot of that happened over the last couple years, you know, you’re top of mind. So I think, you know, being much more than a mattress company and really being a brand in the bedroom is something that’s really kind of helped us evolve and grow, right?

Vira: 13:43

And at the beginning, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you guys did even like some sort of like research about sleeping patterns of North Americans, which like made the headlines of like a lot of websites.

Ricky: 13:55

Yeah, you know, we’re constantly, you know, doing all sorts of sleep research. We’re always trying to be top top of mind. You know, we do produce a lot of content to, you know, again, continue to have a relationship with the customer and also just to be kind of authorities to make sure that we’re always doing the right things as well. So, you know, we consider ourselves, I guess I would say, kind of a nerdy company in that way. But I think it’s all been great and I think it’s obviously added to what we’re trying to do here.

Vira: 14:22

What is the fun fact about sleep that you like the most? It’s like the random question, but I’m sure you know something. I love fun facts. Yeah, it’s really interesting.

Ricky: 14:30

I remember actually we a study about just sort of how people decide to choose which side of the bed they sleep on. And, you know, there’s a lot of interesting facets there. Some of it’s closest to the door. Some people just like to sleep a certain way, you know, which partner sleeps on which side, things like that. So just, just, just actually choosing which side of the bed you take, I think is, is kind of a really fun wormhole to go down. And we have lots of information and data about that.

Alissa: 14:57

Oh my gosh, I bet. Would something like that alter the kind of mattress that you would get?

Ricky: 15:01

Yeah, so people, you know, we have that, that’s kind of why we have different types of products. So some beds are better for side sleepers, some beds are better for back sleepers, some sides are better for stomach sleepers. So I think that that actually is a pretty big impact. And some people sleep hot and some people cool. And so there’s all sorts of very, you know, variabilities in terms of the way that people actually go to bed and sleep. And we try to do a— and so our customer service reps are really well educated in this area, probably more so than I am, to be at this point, but they’re constantly getting educated on what offering fits best with what customer. That’s really why one of the benefits of having grown our product catalog, so we really have something for every type of sleeper.

Alissa: 15:44

That’s awesome. Obviously, aside from the growth of the product catalog and also your customer reps being so insightful, it seems like there’s a very cool, almost culture around sleep and understanding sleep. For you guys. But aside of that, how would you say, or what do you, what would you say you guys have done really, really well in terms of like continuing to bring value to your customers? I guess, Ricky, we’re asking like all these kind of roundabout questions. I guess like the core of it all is like, how do you keep people coming back? Like, is it kind of like a one and done? Like, what does that look like? Once you see a customer, is that the last time that you’ll ever see them? Like, what does that look like for you guys?

Ricky: 16:24

So, so actually, I think, you know, one of the greatest things is Our customer service wait times are less than a minute in almost every case, and we’re 24 hours a day. We’ll have these situations where a customer, I mean, it happens more often than not where a customer has some sort of minor issue, whether it’s with a delivery or whatever it is, and we really bend over backwards for the customer. We want that relationship with the customer. We welcome it. If it means a customer returns a product, that’s fine. If it means a customer customer wants to, you know, swap out or, or do something different, you know, that’s fine too. So, you know, we really do everything we can to cater to our customers, and I think that’s so unique in sort of disruptive companies. And I think particularly us, I think we’ve perfected that model. So our customers who really have a comfortability with us— and I’m sure you could, you know, you, you’ve experienced this in other categories where, you know, certain travel companies, you know, they put you on hold for 2 hours, or certain banks and other ones pick up phone immediately. And you know, when that happens, you know, it just totally shifts the customer’s perspective as to what kind of business that you’re trying to run. And I think because of that, because our first experience is so good, you know, we have, we’ve actually have, I think probably one of the highest multiple bed, you know, rebuy rates in the industry. So, so when someone’s going in and again, moving into a bigger house, you know, more often than not, not, they’ll buy our products.

Vira: 17:47

Wow.

Alissa: 17:47

So it’s really that first impression that people are relying on, or that you guys are relying on to make like stellar. And then it encourages people to either come back or tell their friends or get their whole— Vira just moved house so she can potentially get her whole neighborhood.

Vira: 18:02

Well, and you wouldn’t believe, guys, but I need like 3 more queen-size mattresses, one for my guest room and 2 more for our Airbnb. So I’m like still very much on the market for the mattresses. So like I’m taking notes while we are speaking. Yeah, Ricky, tell us a bit more about like misconceptions about marketing a mattress, because that’s a very, very unique product to market. Like, what are the most common misconceptions people have about marketing a mattress, especially the online mattress?

Ricky: 18:33

So I think the thing with online is, and unfortunately, you know, when, when the industry kind of really ballooned, and I think at one point we had 175 competitors, you have a lot of companies that kind of come out there and say they’re the best thing in the world and, you know, you’ll— the most comfortable mattress on earth or whatever it is. And really without, without the real product to back it up. And so sort of, you know, explaining and, and understanding what those products are and how we’re differentiated from them has been, I think, really critical. I mean, that’s probably been one of the big— was one of the biggest challenges. I think now as we’ve established ourselves as a brand, it’s, it’s less of an issue, but there was definitely a time where, you know, there’s just a lot of confusion in the marketplace. And I think that’s why we really doubled down so heavily on being so educated in the category.

Vira: 19:48

That’s interesting. And I mean, your social media is amazing as well.

Alissa: 19:52

I know, I’ve been following you guys on Instagram.

Vira: 19:54

So fun to follow. It’s not something that you expect from a mattress, from the mattress company.

Alissa: 20:00

Yeah, a mattress company of all things. You’re like, wow, this is my favorite person that I follow on Instagram.

Vira: 20:06

Yeah, yeah.

Ricky: 20:06

There’s an opportunity, you know, anything can be fun and everything can be beautiful, right? So we try to be both. I think it resonates.

Alissa: 20:14

No, it’s great. It’s great. It is true, the more that you look at the way you guys have positioned yourself, even from an aesthetic standpoint, there’s a sweet spot that you guys have found where it’s still classy, but a little bit of fun. It does cater to every tier of anyone who could be purchasing a mattress right now, from a 25-year-old all the way up to a 60-year-old. It’s great. You guys have done a phenomenal job. I’m actually perusing the site as we’re doing this and like, I need, ’cause we just bought a mattress, but I do need some pillows. So I’m like, hmm, this could be the start of a beautiful relationship. So in terms of like all the marketing as a whole with email and then social media and then your website in general, and I know that you guys are using some kind of like chatbot it looks like where like someone could basically talk to anybody at any time through Zendesk, but where does email fit in terms of like, what does your email lifecycle kind of look like? And you don’t have to give us like all your deepest, darkest secrets, but maybe just like a high-level overview of what that looks like would be awesome.

Ricky: 21:20

Yeah, I mean, so, you know, there’s a certain time that people probably are looking to upgrade a mattress, or if they’re looking to, you know, purchase multiple mattresses, you know, we will definitely, you know, try to let customers know, remind them of who we are. You know, whenever we launch new product, you know, we try to to do something special with our customers. And we really try to just have a general cadence around education as well. So generally just fun articles or whatever it is, we’ll send out through email as well. As a company that’s constantly launching new product with consumers that are oftentimes looking to purchase more mattresses or bedding or whatever it is, it’s been relatively not, I’d say straightforward almost in terms of lines of communication. The other thing too that’s nice about this type of product, right, is if you have a mattress, just as you mentioned with your pillows, right? So, you know, first you start off with upgrading your mattress, then all of a sudden you go stay in a super nice hotel and you’re thinking, okay, upgrade my pillows too. And wait, my sheets just don’t— you just don’t, you know, feel as good as those sheets that I had at the, you know, whatever it is, JW Marriott, wherever you went. So basically, you know, having, I think, product that’s, that’s not that’s not only design-driven but also kind of an upgraded lifestyle product, I think is great for email marketing.

Vira: 22:36

And I really love that you’re like Instagram. I haven’t received like that many of your emails yet, but I love that your Instagram, it focuses not as much on like the product, but more like on the experience and on the sleep in general. I’m like obsessed with this thing that you lately did on your Instagram. So there are basically like different enneagrams. I don’t know how to pronounce it correctly. So like different types of people and basically what your social video people did, they did like ideal bedtime routines for different Enneagrams for like the reformer and the achiever and the individualist, like based on like what your type is. They made this like different like mattress suggestions and sleep routine suggestions. And I think it’s so fun that you guys are not just like talking about the features of the product because for me as a purchaser, it doesn’t matter what like features it has. For me, it matters like how it can make my routines better or like my sleep better. So that’s like what matters for me. And I’m like obsessed with what you guys are doing with your content.

Ricky: 23:40

Yeah, thank you. I mean, that’s, I think just having that, you know, making, making the topic of sleep, which is, by the way, such a huge topic, right? So many people don’t sleep well and sleep, sleep, you know, sleeping well drives your entire day. And, you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a critical issue in our culture. And, you know, presenting that, I think, in a fun, easy to digest way is something that we’ve spent a lot of time and attention on. And it’s, it’s, it’s fun to do.

Vira: 24:02

Yeah, that’s That’s awesome. Do you guys somehow like collect or utilize user-generated content in your marketing strategy?

Ricky: 24:10

We do a little bit. So, you know, if you look at our Instagram or look at, you know, some of our social media, you know, there is user-generated content. So if we get, if we get a fun video sent in or a fun, you know, whatever, dog on a bed or whatever it is.

Vira: 24:23

Yeah, dogs on the bed. That’s, that’s my favorite.

Alissa: 24:26

Those are the best kinds of dogs, man.

Ricky: 24:28

Yeah, exactly. Those are, those are always fun to post. And, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re pretty active and, you know, try to have that dialogue with our consumers. So it’s, yeah, so we’ll always, you know, welcome any user-generated content. And, you know, we have a lot of reviewers, they kind of do their own thing, but there are a lot of people who will just go on their own and kind of review the product or whatever. And, you know, that’s always welcome too. So, you know, we’ve had a, we’ve had kind of a nice following.

Vira: 24:54

Cool. That’s awesome.

Alissa: 24:56

So in terms of, obviously, in the e-commerce marketing world, there’s always a ton of testing. We’re doing a lot of that here internally, but always testing like what works for your audience, what what doesn’t work for your audience, what works in terms of conversions, what doesn’t work in terms of conversions. Is there anything that you’ve experienced kind of along the way that was sort of like an unexpected surprise, maybe something that like you thought for sure would work but didn’t or vice versa?

Ricky: 25:22

So I think that, you know, overall, I’m sorry, could you just repeat the question?

Alissa: 25:26

Yeah.

Vira: 25:27

Yeah.

Alissa: 25:27

So it’s really just like, is there anything that kind of surprised you about like what did or did not work for your audience when it came to marketing, whether it’s email or anything else as a whole?

Ricky: 25:36

Yeah, so I think to be totally honest, social has been a channel that’s worked really well for maintaining customer relationships as well as a retargeting platform. Social’s been interesting in terms of an acquisition platform, and I think just as the dynamics of social have changed, we’re always trying to play with what we do with social media as an acquisition, retention, or engagement platform. It’s become a little less of an acquisition platform than, than it was in the past.

Vira: 26:07

That’s interesting.

Alissa: 26:07

Very interesting. Wow. Social of all, of all places. Right. Very cool. Ricky, thank you so much for today. This was awesome. Yeah.

Ricky: 26:15

Thank you.

Alissa: 26:16

Really appreciate it.

Ricky: 26:17

You guys. Yeah. Thank you.

Alissa: 26:19

No, this is great. For anyone who is interested in either Sattva or like touching base with you or like someone from your team, where can people find you? You guys, other than your website, of course, your very awesome website.

Ricky: 26:33

Thanks. So, so, you know, we’re Saatva on, on Instagram and, uh, you know, I think, you know, you can find me on LinkedIn. So I’m always on, on available on LinkedIn, Ricky Joshi, and, uh, you know, saatva.com is a great destination as well.

Alissa: 26:50

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Ricky: 26:51

And also feel free to Google us too, right? So if you want to learn more about the brand, um, we have a lot of content out there. Our blog is also fantastic. So it’s, it’s, there’s a lot of fun information on our blog. Just Google Saatva, there’s a lot of fun information. So yeah, lots of places to find us.

Alissa: 27:07

Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much, Ricky. And guys, thank you all for listening in. Very, very, very grateful that we got some more insights on what it looks like to market for mattresses. And now you guys all understand why that’s always been such a relevant and important comparison for us because it’s a little different, right? You have to kind of structure how you’re going to do your marketing a little bit differently when you have a product that is aiming for longevity for a customer’s use versus something that’s a little more short-lived or short-term. So as always, don’t forget to subscribe and share this podcast with your friends. And if you like what we do, as always, we ask that you leave us a review. If you do leave us a review, make sure that you send either myself or Vira a screenshot of that review, and we will send you your very own pair of Flowium socks. One day we’ll get to the mattresses and it’ll for sure be a, a Saatva, like Flowium branded mattress.

Vira: 28:00

Can you imagine, Alissa?

Alissa: 28:02

I know, right? That’s when we made it big. And if you guys want to get involved in a community, make sure that you join us at flowium.com/community. That’s where we have a ton of other email marketing nerds and other e-commerce business owners kind of share about their experiences, share their insights, questions, comments, concerns, anything of the sort. Super helpful. So make sure that you check that out whenever you can.

Vira: 28:28

Awesome. And definitely come back next week because next week we will be talking about collecting data, collecting data through newsletters, how to collect information through newsletters and how to send more impactful messages to your customers. So come back next Tuesday and thank you so much for listening. Ricky, thank you so much for coming to our podcast. It was fun having you here and we hope to talk to you again someday soon.

Alissa: 28:51

Yeah, thank you.

Ricky: 28:52

Thank you so much. No, it was great being here. Thank you.

Alissa: 28:56

Thanks.